Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - Solid lining...does grain orientation matter?

"good joinery and how they fit your sides is what matters."

I think even that is less important than what some people believe. Some guitars with sloppily fitted tentalones still sound fine and hold together well enough. Tight fitting, well made linings are somewhat better and much prettier though.

If it were me, I'd be using wood oriented the same as the sides, as if you'd taken a side and cut the lining strips from it.

One thing I'd like to ask you folks into solid linings (or laminated)...

How do you get it to match the sphere of the back, bending the direction along the length? Standard kerfed linings are bad enough as far as wanting to gap where the waist bends. How do you get around that?

One thing I'd like to ask you folks into solid linings (or laminated)...

How do you get it to match the sphere of the back, bending the direction along the length? Standard kerfed linings are bad enough as far as wanting to gap where the waist bends. How do you get around that?

"So what exactly are you saying? Crappy, gappy glue lines, maybe some twist? "
"Not knowing what the "some people" view of excellence happens to be. It appears that mediocrity (good enough) is given a pass on craftsmanship."

Yes , exactly... crappy, gappy, linings (within reason) will work. Well fitted linings certainly look better and are the mark of good craftsmanship.
Robert Lundberg espoused the "good enough" workmanship ethic. I would never suggest he did sloppy work. As one's skill set improves what was "good enough" , no longer is, and the bar is raised.

Author:	charlton [ Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:01 am ]
Post subject:	Solid lining...does grain orientation matter?
Does anyone have any insight into whether grain orientation for solid linings matter? Can I, for example, take a flatsawn piece of maple, resaw it into 2.2m slats, bend them on the side bender, laminate them and then cut them into strips to glue to my ribs or would I be better off ripping little quartersawn strips and then laminating those instead? Intuition tells me it doesn't really matter since the strips are so narrow and thin. Thanks! Charlton

Author:	David Newton [ Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Solid lining...does grain orientation matter?
I don't think it matters much, but it may, depending on the choice of wood. If I choose Mahogany, I like the strips flat-sawn for ease of bending. A hardwood like Maple probably doesn't matter, the grain orientation, but I try to choose by which way I think it will be easier to bend.

Author:	Michael.N. [ Sat Jan 31, 2015 4:35 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Solid lining...does grain orientation matter?
The flat sawn may have a tendency to cup more, across it's width. Quartered stuff cups a little as well and I always find that I have to scrape certain areas on the back of the lining to get a good close fit to the sides. I use a bending iron though, so you may well have a different experience with the machine.

Author:	kencierp [ Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Solid lining...does grain orientation matter?
I would suggest that vertical grain material would be the better choice, its not a big deal but having similar shrink and expansion rates is a good idea -- here's the inside of an R Taylor looks like 1/4 sawn to me. http://www.rtaylorguitars.com/Woods-Details-01.aspx Just want to add an edit here -- the linings in the R Taylor are solid hardwood which I believe we are discussing. As opposed to laminated linings.

Author:	Clinchriver [ Sat Jan 31, 2015 7:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Solid lining...does grain orientation matter?
Grain orientation on laminated linings is inconsequential good joinery and how they fit your sides is what matters.

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Author:	Clay S. [ Sat Jan 31, 2015 8:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Solid lining...does grain orientation matter?
"good joinery and how they fit your sides is what matters." I think even that is less important than what some people believe. Some guitars with sloppily fitted tentalones still sound fine and hold together well enough. Tight fitting, well made linings are somewhat better and much prettier though.

Author:	James Ringelspaugh [ Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:53 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Solid lining...does grain orientation matter?
It matters only as an intellectual exercise... certainly not as a practical matter.

Author:	Clinchriver [ Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Solid lining...does grain orientation matter?
Clay S. wrote: "good joinery and how they fit your sides is what matters." I think even that is less important than what some people believe. Some guitars with sloppily fitted tentalones still sound fine and hold together well enough. Tight fitting, well made linings are somewhat better and much prettier though. So what exactly are you saying? Crappy, gappy glue lines, maybe some twist? Since laminated linings are kind of stiff offset them so they distort your sides?

Author:	kencierp [ Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Solid lining...does grain orientation matter?
I am at a loss on this one too. Not knowing what the "some people" view of excellence happens to be. It appears that mediocrity (good enough) is given a pass on craftsmanship. True I've seen some pretty crappy looking guitars with all sorts of miscues, that to my ears sound pretty good -- question is why would one lower the bar on this particular construction phase?

Author:	Alex Kleon [ Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Solid lining...does grain orientation matter?
I made these linings from dyed, flat sawn poplar. No springback, and very stiff. Alex Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Author:	meddlingfool [ Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Solid lining...does grain orientation matter?
If it were me, I'd be using wood oriented the same as the sides, as if you'd taken a side and cut the lining strips from it. One thing I'd like to ask you folks into solid linings (or laminated)... How do you get it to match the sphere of the back, bending the direction along the length? Standard kerfed linings are bad enough as far as wanting to gap where the waist bends. How do you get around that?

Author:	Clinchriver [ Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Solid lining...does grain orientation matter?
meddlingfool wrote: If it were me, I'd be using wood oriented the same as the sides, as if you'd taken a side and cut the lining strips from it. One thing I'd like to ask you folks into solid linings (or laminated)... How do you get it to match the sphere of the back, bending the direction along the length? Standard kerfed linings are bad enough as far as wanting to gap where the waist bends. How do you get around that? I've done two and I went with 3/4 width (.240 X .750) on the lining, glued to a line 5/8's depth on the sides and used a small block plane to hit my radius with minimal sanding with the radius dishes. It really stiffens things up. Of course the grain is paralell with the sides , flat sawn versus quarter sawn for a 3 ply lamination is not an issue.

Author:	David Wren [ Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Solid lining...does grain orientation matter?
My experience with laminated solid linings (I've used basswood, mahogany and poplar over the last 40 years) is that grain orientation does not matter. I've never had a problem making them conform to the compound curves created by the radius of the back or top either.

Author:	meddlingfool [ Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Solid lining...does grain orientation matter?
Do you add the lams one by one, or add to the rims as a composite?

Author:	Clay S. [ Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Solid lining...does grain orientation matter?
Hi Michael, I agree with your above statement entirely, especially about the part "without being overly fussy" , and that was the point I was trying to make. Poor workmanship is poor workmanship and I'm not advocating that. However, linings are an area where less than perfect execution probably won't hurt the instrument from a functional standpoint. As an amateur I strive to build the best instrument I can within my skill set, but I don't sweat less than perfect work in places that don't matter. As my skills improve, so does the workmanship. Not being a "Master Luthier" isn't going to keep me from building instruments.

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Author:	Clay S. [ Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Solid lining...does grain orientation matter?
"So what exactly are you saying? Crappy, gappy glue lines, maybe some twist? " "Not knowing what the "some people" view of excellence happens to be. It appears that mediocrity (good enough) is given a pass on craftsmanship." Yes , exactly... crappy, gappy, linings (within reason) will work. Well fitted linings certainly look better and are the mark of good craftsmanship. Robert Lundberg espoused the "good enough" workmanship ethic. I would never suggest he did sloppy work. As one's skill set improves what was "good enough" , no longer is, and the bar is raised.

Author:	David Newton [ Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Solid lining...does grain orientation matter?
meddlingfool wrote: One thing I'd like to ask you folks into solid linings (or laminated)... How do you get it to match the sphere of the back, bending the direction along the length? Standard kerfed linings are bad enough as far as wanting to gap where the waist bends. How do you get around that? I use a few strategies... 2 or 3 part laminations, glued into the sides one at a time, so the twist is "averaged". I cut one kerf in the lining at the waist, where the arch mostly occurs. The linings are wider than needed, at the neck block they ride higher and are trimmed off over the sides.

Author:	meddlingfool [ Sun Feb 01, 2015 1:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Solid lining...does grain orientation matter?
Thanks!

Author:	Trevor Gore [ Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Solid lining...does grain orientation matter?
It depends on the wood and the glue. Apply a water based glue to just one side a flat sawn slat as part of a lamination and there's a fairly good chance it will cup, which then has to be clamped flat, but that only happens on the piece exposed on the inside of the guitar. The other slats see glue both sides. Reverse kerf linings can occasionally behave in the same way, cupping as they are being glued, which makes them a PITA to clamp flat. The amount of pain is proportional to the depth of your linings.

Author:	Michael.N. [ Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Solid lining...does grain orientation matter?
Clay S. wrote: "So what exactly are you saying? Crappy, gappy glue lines, maybe some twist? " "Not knowing what the "some people" view of excellence happens to be. It appears that mediocrity (good enough) is given a pass on craftsmanship." Yes , exactly... crappy, gappy, linings (within reason) will work. Well fitted linings certainly look better and are the mark of good craftsmanship. Robert Lundberg espoused the "good enough" workmanship ethic. I would never suggest he did sloppy work. As one's skill set improves what was "good enough" , no longer is, and the bar is raised. Yes, if you look at Lundbergs work it's quite obviously a bit more than 'good enough'. I tend to think he wasn't really referring to bad joinery but things like the 'billiard ball finish', scraped tops/ribs (rather than sanded), finished knife cuts rather than things being over sanded ect. I think he was trying to produce Lutes in the tradition of Lute building - made by very highly skilled craftsmen but without being overly fussy. That's my take on it.